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	<title>Comments for Workers Party (NZ)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://workersparty.org.nz/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://workersparty.org.nz</link>
	<description>Pro-Worker/Anti-Capitalist</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:47:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on The dialectical relationship between work and mental health: part 3 by soaringkiwi</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/23/the-dialectical-relationship-between-work-and-mental-health-part-3/#comment-14858</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[soaringkiwi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2012 00:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5632#comment-14858</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good food for thought, time for a ponder.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good food for thought, time for a ponder.</p>
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		<title>Comment on State-owned assets: No to confiscation, yes to collective control by decafe510</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/20/state-owned-assets-no-to-confiscation-yes-to-collective-control/#comment-14827</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[decafe510]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5604#comment-14827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John and his cronies,...I can see he&#039;s thinking to himself,..&quot;what can I sell next, is it to late for derivatives in NZ?&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John and his cronies,&#8230;I can see he&#8217;s thinking to himself,..&#8221;what can I sell next, is it to late for derivatives in NZ?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on State-owned assets: No to confiscation, yes to collective control by Don Franks</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/20/state-owned-assets-no-to-confiscation-yes-to-collective-control/#comment-14826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Franks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5604#comment-14826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not the main point I know, but Jesus, what an absolutely hideous picture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not the main point I know, but Jesus, what an absolutely hideous picture.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by raved</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[raved]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 03:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would add to this reference another draft article from the 90s that covers the same ground. &#039;Antipodean Marxism meets Indigenous peoples&#039; Struggles&#039;. 
http://bit.ly/wVbnqz]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add to this reference another draft article from the 90s that covers the same ground. &#8216;Antipodean Marxism meets Indigenous peoples&#8217; Struggles&#8217;.<br />
<a href="http://bit.ly/wVbnqz" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/wVbnqz</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by Scott</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14694</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 06:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14694</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Now I read them over, those comments about abstract forces and so on seem a bit cold and dry! Here&#039;s how I made the same sort of point in (yet another) argument with Chris Trotter:

If we take the historical materialist approach, we don&#039;t have to consider, say, the Pakeha takeover of Aotearoa in the nineteenth century as some sort of expression of the inherent evil of white people: we can see it as, in part at least, a consequence of historical forces like capitalism and imperialism that transcend individual humans and individual cultures. My Irish ancestors did not float to New Zealand and settle on confiscated land because they were racists who wanted to help push Maori to the margins of Te Ika a Maui - they came here because they were tired of struggling to survive by growing flax on a few acres of swampy land rented from wealthy Anglo-Irish families. They were part of an imperialist adventure in the south seas, but they had themselves experienced at least some of the realities of imperialism at home, and this experience is what prompted them to come south...

http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/02/how-evil-is-history.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I read them over, those comments about abstract forces and so on seem a bit cold and dry! Here&#8217;s how I made the same sort of point in (yet another) argument with Chris Trotter:</p>
<p>If we take the historical materialist approach, we don&#8217;t have to consider, say, the Pakeha takeover of Aotearoa in the nineteenth century as some sort of expression of the inherent evil of white people: we can see it as, in part at least, a consequence of historical forces like capitalism and imperialism that transcend individual humans and individual cultures. My Irish ancestors did not float to New Zealand and settle on confiscated land because they were racists who wanted to help push Maori to the margins of Te Ika a Maui &#8211; they came here because they were tired of struggling to survive by growing flax on a few acres of swampy land rented from wealthy Anglo-Irish families. They were part of an imperialist adventure in the south seas, but they had themselves experienced at least some of the realities of imperialism at home, and this experience is what prompted them to come south&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/02/how-evil-is-history.html" rel="nofollow">http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/02/how-evil-is-history.html</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by Scott</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14693</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 06:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do actually agree that there are certain subjects which are very difficult for someone outside a particular culture to address. I blogged (http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/crossing-cultures.html) about finding unpublished manuscripts by Te Puea and Te Kooti in an archive, and leaving them there, because I would have lacked the cultural knowledge to interpret them. 

But when we&#039;re talking about broad historical trends and broad sociological patterns, rather than esoteric matters like Te Kooti&#039;s religion or seldom-studied subjects like Te Puea&#039;s experiments in communal farming with her extended family, then the attempt to restrict open discussion is not about sensitivity, but about control. 

Back in the 1980s Donna Awatere attacked both Pakeha and Maori Marxists for using a &#039;non-Maori&#039; method of understanding history. She wasn&#039;t happy when Marxists like Dave Bedggood talked about the link between colonialism and capitalism and related what happened in Aotearoa to what was happening in Europe in the nineteenth century. Awatere said that only Maori could talk about Maori history, and that Bedggood et al for racists for trying to do so. But her real concern was to create a monopoloy for herself, by making herself the person who spoke for all Maori and interpreted Maori history to non-Maori. And, once she had gone some way towards achieving this status, she made a nice profit out of running all sorts of Treaty sensitivity courses where she acted as the fount of all wisdom for white liberals too afraid to think for themselves about history. 

I think that one of the strengths of Marxism - of a certain type of Marxism, anyway - is its emphasis on the relatively dispassionate analysis of broad trends in history and broad patterns in society. By getting this sort of &#039;big picture&#039; we can escape from some of the emotionalism which folks like Awatere trade on. One of the problems with discussions of history in New Zealand is the way they tend to descend into arguments about the morality, or lack of morality, of certain groups. Maori are patronised and cast as the innocent victims of history, and Pakeha made into the big bad guys. Because it emphasises that history is, in the long run, the product of abstract forces like economics, the environment, demographics, and so on, and not of the moral decisions of individuals, Marxism can actually, if it is used properly, help to take some of the sting out of our history, and induce a bit of clarity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do actually agree that there are certain subjects which are very difficult for someone outside a particular culture to address. I blogged (<a href="http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/crossing-cultures.html" rel="nofollow">http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/crossing-cultures.html</a>) about finding unpublished manuscripts by Te Puea and Te Kooti in an archive, and leaving them there, because I would have lacked the cultural knowledge to interpret them. </p>
<p>But when we&#8217;re talking about broad historical trends and broad sociological patterns, rather than esoteric matters like Te Kooti&#8217;s religion or seldom-studied subjects like Te Puea&#8217;s experiments in communal farming with her extended family, then the attempt to restrict open discussion is not about sensitivity, but about control. </p>
<p>Back in the 1980s Donna Awatere attacked both Pakeha and Maori Marxists for using a &#8216;non-Maori&#8217; method of understanding history. She wasn&#8217;t happy when Marxists like Dave Bedggood talked about the link between colonialism and capitalism and related what happened in Aotearoa to what was happening in Europe in the nineteenth century. Awatere said that only Maori could talk about Maori history, and that Bedggood et al for racists for trying to do so. But her real concern was to create a monopoloy for herself, by making herself the person who spoke for all Maori and interpreted Maori history to non-Maori. And, once she had gone some way towards achieving this status, she made a nice profit out of running all sorts of Treaty sensitivity courses where she acted as the fount of all wisdom for white liberals too afraid to think for themselves about history. </p>
<p>I think that one of the strengths of Marxism &#8211; of a certain type of Marxism, anyway &#8211; is its emphasis on the relatively dispassionate analysis of broad trends in history and broad patterns in society. By getting this sort of &#8216;big picture&#8217; we can escape from some of the emotionalism which folks like Awatere trade on. One of the problems with discussions of history in New Zealand is the way they tend to descend into arguments about the morality, or lack of morality, of certain groups. Maori are patronised and cast as the innocent victims of history, and Pakeha made into the big bad guys. Because it emphasises that history is, in the long run, the product of abstract forces like economics, the environment, demographics, and so on, and not of the moral decisions of individuals, Marxism can actually, if it is used properly, help to take some of the sting out of our history, and induce a bit of clarity.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by Mike K</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14690</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[KR, the Workers Party rejects the notion, rooted in sectarian identity politics, that a person&#039;s views can be dismissed purely on the basis of their gender or ethnicity. Our approach is to test ideas through discussion and debate, and ultimately in practice, to determine whether they advance the cause of liberation of the working class and oppressed peoples.

As it happens, I&#039;d generally agree with your comment that Māori tend to view the Treaty as a &quot;tool&quot; to advance group interests, however it is very much a double-edged tool, as Annette Sykes&#039; lecture on the Brown Table shows, the Crown has used the Treaty to create a fairly compliant bureaucracy in its own image.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KR, the Workers Party rejects the notion, rooted in sectarian identity politics, that a person&#8217;s views can be dismissed purely on the basis of their gender or ethnicity. Our approach is to test ideas through discussion and debate, and ultimately in practice, to determine whether they advance the cause of liberation of the working class and oppressed peoples.</p>
<p>As it happens, I&#8217;d generally agree with your comment that Māori tend to view the Treaty as a &#8220;tool&#8221; to advance group interests, however it is very much a double-edged tool, as Annette Sykes&#8217; lecture on the Brown Table shows, the Crown has used the Treaty to create a fairly compliant bureaucracy in its own image.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by Scott</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[KR, have you heard of folks like Te Rangi Hiroa, Apirana Ngata, Ranginui Walker, Pat Hohepa, Evan Poata-Smith? Maori scholars have been intervening in debates about the history of these islands for one hundred and fifty years. The views which I&#039;m arguing are informed by their scholarship, as well as by the ideas of non-Maori, some of whom - old Karl Marx, for instance - never even set foot in New Zealand. Are you saying than Te Rangi Hiroa et al are &#039;irrelevant&#039;? Or are you only going to consider the work of brown scholars? How would that work in practice, since people like Te Rangi Hiroa cite, in their texts, a range of authors, some of them brown and some of them white? And did you check with the scores of Maori doing postgraduate or academic or independent scholarly research into their past before you decided to speak for them? Are you going to police their work, and strike out the footnotes that refer to white scholars?

The truth is that it&#039;s completely impossible to study the history of Pakeha without studying the story of Maori, and vice versa. The two pasts are hopelessly intertwined, despite what redneck Pakeha and bourgeois Maori nationalists might suggest. 

In Tonga, where the locals have never felt the pressure which comes from colonisation, it&#039;s perfectly normal, and indeed expected, for scholars to bring European and Tongan subjects and themes together. Tonga&#039;s first university, the &#039;Atenisi Institute, taught Greek and Latin alongside Tongan culture and language. In New Zealand bourgeois Maori leaders like Donna Awatere in the 1980s and Tariana Turia today have tried to put up walls between Maori and Pakeha subjects, and derided both scholars and activists who have crossed these barriers. Hence Tariana recently attacked Hone and the Mana Party for talking about &#039;Pakeha&#039; concerns like union rights. But the truth is that unions are the concern of both Maori and Pakeha workers - and the history of New Zealand is the concern of Maori and Pakeha alike.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KR, have you heard of folks like Te Rangi Hiroa, Apirana Ngata, Ranginui Walker, Pat Hohepa, Evan Poata-Smith? Maori scholars have been intervening in debates about the history of these islands for one hundred and fifty years. The views which I&#8217;m arguing are informed by their scholarship, as well as by the ideas of non-Maori, some of whom &#8211; old Karl Marx, for instance &#8211; never even set foot in New Zealand. Are you saying than Te Rangi Hiroa et al are &#8216;irrelevant&#8217;? Or are you only going to consider the work of brown scholars? How would that work in practice, since people like Te Rangi Hiroa cite, in their texts, a range of authors, some of them brown and some of them white? And did you check with the scores of Maori doing postgraduate or academic or independent scholarly research into their past before you decided to speak for them? Are you going to police their work, and strike out the footnotes that refer to white scholars?</p>
<p>The truth is that it&#8217;s completely impossible to study the history of Pakeha without studying the story of Maori, and vice versa. The two pasts are hopelessly intertwined, despite what redneck Pakeha and bourgeois Maori nationalists might suggest. </p>
<p>In Tonga, where the locals have never felt the pressure which comes from colonisation, it&#8217;s perfectly normal, and indeed expected, for scholars to bring European and Tongan subjects and themes together. Tonga&#8217;s first university, the &#8216;Atenisi Institute, taught Greek and Latin alongside Tongan culture and language. In New Zealand bourgeois Maori leaders like Donna Awatere in the 1980s and Tariana Turia today have tried to put up walls between Maori and Pakeha subjects, and derided both scholars and activists who have crossed these barriers. Hence Tariana recently attacked Hone and the Mana Party for talking about &#8216;Pakeha&#8217; concerns like union rights. But the truth is that unions are the concern of both Maori and Pakeha workers &#8211; and the history of New Zealand is the concern of Maori and Pakeha alike.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by KR</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14676</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 22:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How lucky we have white men to decide these matters for us! It isn&#039;t like Maori have been resisting colonisation for 170 years or actually know anything about our own cultures and societies.  &quot;Scott&#039;s comments are as obnoxious as the original post. why don&#039;t you white men have your discussion and decide our exact role in your theory and let us know.  1 thing you should have learnt from 2004 if you didn&#039;t learn from the previous 100 years of European occupation Maori have our own aspirations and agendas, your theories are irrelevant we don&#039;t exist for your benefit.

FYI Maori don&#039;t love the treaty for the sake of it, it is just a tool we can use with the current legal system.  We are &quot;using the masters tools&quot; but that is just a meaningless rhetorical slogan, we use whatever tools we have to hand.  Indigenous people in Australia don&#039;t have a treaty and it has been much more difficult for them to get anywhere with the state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How lucky we have white men to decide these matters for us! It isn&#8217;t like Maori have been resisting colonisation for 170 years or actually know anything about our own cultures and societies.  &#8220;Scott&#8217;s comments are as obnoxious as the original post. why don&#8217;t you white men have your discussion and decide our exact role in your theory and let us know.  1 thing you should have learnt from 2004 if you didn&#8217;t learn from the previous 100 years of European occupation Maori have our own aspirations and agendas, your theories are irrelevant we don&#8217;t exist for your benefit.</p>
<p>FYI Maori don&#8217;t love the treaty for the sake of it, it is just a tool we can use with the current legal system.  We are &#8220;using the masters tools&#8221; but that is just a meaningless rhetorical slogan, we use whatever tools we have to hand.  Indigenous people in Australia don&#8217;t have a treaty and it has been much more difficult for them to get anywhere with the state.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Treaty, The Foreshore &amp; Seabed and Tino Rangatiratanga by Scott</title>
		<link>http://workersparty.org.nz/2012/02/05/the-treaty-the-foreshore-seabed-and-tino-rangatiritanga/#comment-14598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 03:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://workersparty.org.nz/?p=5471#comment-14598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with you that socialism in one co-op is not really a goer - 
but there is a need to find an example or two that might make all the talk about socialist alternatives and so on easier for people to understand. Just as an occupied factory or school might serve as an example, a glimpse of a different way of doing things, so might a collectively-run farm or enterprise. I sometimes get into drawn-out and boozy, though ultimately good-natured, arguments about the pros and cons of socialism and capitalism with my in-laws, who are mostly right-leaning hippies, and when they try the &#039;socialism has never worked&#039;/&#039;socialism would never work in New Zealand&#039; line on me, I try to annoy them by saying &#039;But it did work here&#039;, and talking about the Waikato Kingdom, with its collective ownership of much land and of capital like flour mills and its fleets of trader-schooners earning revenue which was distributed according to non-market criteria, or Parihaka, and Te Whiti&#039;s praise of &#039;the miracle&#039; of collective land ownership and labour. Of course I wouldn&#039;t want to put forward either the Waikato Kingdom or Parihaka as a paradise or a model which should be closely followed today, but they do sometimes get people thinking, whereas a discussion of the bureaucratic deformation of the Russian revolution or the ill-fated Spanish revolution doesn&#039;t, in my experience...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that socialism in one co-op is not really a goer &#8211;<br />
but there is a need to find an example or two that might make all the talk about socialist alternatives and so on easier for people to understand. Just as an occupied factory or school might serve as an example, a glimpse of a different way of doing things, so might a collectively-run farm or enterprise. I sometimes get into drawn-out and boozy, though ultimately good-natured, arguments about the pros and cons of socialism and capitalism with my in-laws, who are mostly right-leaning hippies, and when they try the &#8216;socialism has never worked&#8217;/'socialism would never work in New Zealand&#8217; line on me, I try to annoy them by saying &#8216;But it did work here&#8217;, and talking about the Waikato Kingdom, with its collective ownership of much land and of capital like flour mills and its fleets of trader-schooners earning revenue which was distributed according to non-market criteria, or Parihaka, and Te Whiti&#8217;s praise of &#8216;the miracle&#8217; of collective land ownership and labour. Of course I wouldn&#8217;t want to put forward either the Waikato Kingdom or Parihaka as a paradise or a model which should be closely followed today, but they do sometimes get people thinking, whereas a discussion of the bureaucratic deformation of the Russian revolution or the ill-fated Spanish revolution doesn&#8217;t, in my experience&#8230;</p>
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